by: Diane Benjamin
Show of hands please – How many of you shop downtown? Go to downtown restaurants? Maybe you go to the Farmers Market, but ever go downtown for anything else? Maybe jury duty, go to the BCPA or Coliseum occasionally, hit the bars, any other reason? There are people in downtown Bloomington, but far from the majority of residents.
Watch this 36 second clip from last night’s City Council meeting. It is Renner’s view of downtown, comments he has made numerous times.
.
The professor thinks downtown is Bloomington’s future. He believes people want to work and shop downtown. He is using YOUR money to make that happen.
Professor Renner, you work at a University educating millennials. I think they are giving you an unproven theory of the future. Surveys of millennials showing they don’t want to live in suburbs should be read closer. They DON’T want to live in inner city Bloomington, they want to be in downtown Portland Oregon or Austin Texas. They can’t afford cars or an hour commute each way, so they think they want to be inner city residents. They currently want big cities filled with downtown shopping and quaint restaurants. Your attempt to transform downtown Bloomington into a place people want to live is your vision. Ask permanent residents what they want, most of your students aren’t staying here. Don’t just ask the current downtown residents – they aren’t paying most of the bills. Meanwhile, you spent another $90,000 of taxpayer money on downtown last night. Proof government spending plans that are passed with supposed term limits end up living forever instead. See the comment made by Jamie Mathy to this story: http://blnnews.com/2014/05/27/who-has-a-vested-interest-in-downtown-bloomington/. If all these people care so much about downtown, why is the program of taxpayers supporting the DBA still needed?
Many millennials have never known economic prosperity, we are still in the recession that started in 2008. Even CBS News reported last week the recovery has not reached most Americans. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-u-s-families-however-theyre-composed-feel-strapped/) College grads can’t get good jobs and they are under a mountain of debt. It’s an American tragedy that government now rules instead of governs. We all have a bleak future because of government debt, but no one more than millennials.
Professor: You made it worse. Your 3 tax increases make life in Bloomington more expensive. The Springfield politicians have already wrecked Illinois, Bloomington used to be a haven from their crazy spending. Tari, you have brought Springfield to Bloomington. Spend, spend, spend – tax, tax, tax. You claim to have matched cuts and taxes dollar for dollar. The cuts were to spending you proposed! Did you think we wouldn’t notice total spending is up? You can’t lie your way to success. Maybe you can fool your students, citizens are much smarter.
Another lie: McLean County property taxes are competitive with surrounding Counties. Maybe you need some facts: http://www.rebootillinois.com/2014/03/12/top-lists/brendanbond/illinois-property-taxes-by-county/3173/. Maybe you also need an economics lesson. Who taught you it was okay to raise taxes if somebody nearby has higher taxes? Do you jump off cliffs because everybody else is doing it?
It is not the job of government to engineer economies. Professors, like you Tari, have dreamed of Utopia in classrooms. Now they are forcing their dreams on taxpayers. The failures are glaring. Citizens are being robbed and millennials are facing a dismal future.
Professor: If you cared about your students you would be finding ways to let them keep more of their money – that doesn’t mean more government tuition grants that increase costs! Let them create their own utopia. They will figure it out. You are the obstacle, not the solution.
Can you quit repeating the lies now? We’ve heard enough of them.
Here’s more information on McLean County: http://www.rebootillinois.com/2014/05/01/whats-hot/mattdietrich/25-illinois-counties-highest-average-home-values/7699/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=5/27/2014
.
.
.
Couple of thoughts for you Diane:
You may be correct that millennials want to live in Portland, and there is probably a percentage of them that choose to move to the west coast. Heck, after some of the crazy cold we had this winter, it would be a nice change. Yet for those that cannot or choose not to move, there is a significant number of them that want to live in downtown-style neighborhoods. In Downtown Bloomington, most of the time there is a waiting list of people looking for apartments to open up. 28 newly remodeled apartments just opened up above the hockey shop and are already rented. Its a trend that we have been seeing for 5+ years. Over 1000 people live above the shops and businesses in Downtown Bloomington now.
Who shops and eats in Downtown? A lot of people. Come Downtown on a Saturday morning and watch the Farmers’ Market. Come on a Friday night and see all the people in the restaurants and stores during F1rst Fr1days events. Come down and check out the WGLT Summer Concert. Come watch what is going on at the Museum of History with all the school kids all summer long. Come walk around Downtown any day during lunch.
Downtown Bloomington is the historic and cultural hub of Bloomington. But lets just assume that you don’t care about that. So…
Downtown Bloomington is a fast-growing economic hub for Bloomington. During the 23 period of the TIF district, the assessed value of the TIF district increased from $21 million to $32 million, outpacing inflation by about 8%. The money collected and used for Downtown improvements during that 23 year period of time will be repaid by the increases in assessed value over 7 years. (at least using the most recent numbers I have from 2011 – the assessed value has probably continued to rise due to continued private investment). Accoridng to the most recent charts I saw, sales tax revenue in a district heavily populated by professionals and services rose every yeaer from 1989 – 2011.
Another thought is that the DBA as a membership association can use a resource that is difficult for the City to use because of liability reasons – volunteers. Most of the Farmers’ Market is run by volunteers; our fundraisers and other promotional events that keep economic activity happening are powered the same way.
My point is that until the DBA achieves full self-sustainability, the investment in Downtown Bloomington is a smart economic move for the city with a positive return on investment.
I called some agencies 4-6 months ago renting units downtown. They all had vacancies. Yes, there are people downtown but it’s a small percentage of the people being asked to fund it.
Let’s take this a step farther. I hear the Coliseum and BCPA generate millions of dollars of economic activity. Now add the DBA’s millions. If these were true, the City should be swimming in money. Instead they just increased 3 taxes.
To be clear, I said that the assessed value of the Downtown area increased. As you know, the assessed value is then taxed at whatever rate the City Council sets. It isn’t a net positive tax of millions. I don’t remember offhand what the net positive taxable gain was – I think it was something like $600,000 more in tax dollars after the TIF than before, but I may be mistaken.
The way I understand it, the BCPA and CVB measure their activity is economic dollars that are then taxable. The City of Bloomington only gets 1.5%ish of that directly, with the rest flowing to other taxing entities.
If I’m wrong on this, please let me know.
I get that Bloomington isn’t getting millions, I want to know if they get enough to cover costs. Since taxes went up and will continue going up, it sure doesn’t look like throwing economic activity numbers around does anything to truthfully say what is happening.
The DBA is NEVER going to achieve full “sustainability”. Nice way to use one of the new weasel words in your reply. I’m not against the downtown. I’m simply against using taxpayer dollars to prop up the downtown area. If folks choose to live downtown, that is their right. What irks me and others is the insistence by you and the DBA that the rest of us taxpayers PAY to help forward your agenda.
Back at my hometown in Quincy, the merchants themselves put up money to improve the area. They are the people with skin in the game.
just saying….
Captain, I’m not sure what you mean by “weasel words”? In the business world, sustainable means self-perpetuating. It’s a pretty common term. Our goal is to annually raise enough money to keep the DBA offices open without City aid.
JDW, I can tell you personally that both of my businesses do contribute to the DBA as annual members and support fundraisers and other projects downtown. $90,000 is not the total DBA budget. The City is currently the largest funder, but certainly not the only one. We are working to increase the number and total value of the donations from private and public partnerships.
Of course millennials are migrating to inner cities. It is hard to pay car insurance, car payment and buy gas when you don’t have a job. In order for Mayor Renner’s downtown strategy to work the economy must continue to weaken. But don’t worry everyone can sit in a circle of grass writing poetry, reading the communist manifesto, playing the flute and enjoying their new founded Equality of everyone being equally poor, jobless, no vehicle and living in the same high density micro apartment waiting for their next government check to come in. This is what the Progressives call “Utopia.”
Sustainability! Socialism + Earth Worship = Globalization
Jamie if the downtown is doing so well as you claim, then why aren’t you supporting yourselves right now? According to your post the restaurants are doing well, at least on Farmers Markets days and 1st Fridays. Lol, guess that is why Elroy’s is doing breakfast now. How about the 1,000 who live downtown? Wow, gosh, out of 80,000 is that 1.25%. Are we supposed to be impressed with that number Jamie? Obviously there are 98.75% who do NOT live downtown! The City of Bloomington has many needs in respect to the other 98.75%. You and the few on the DBA are being selfish. Many millions have been spent with the downtown Coliseum and the BCPA which is constantly commanding more city funds. The downtown has gotten more than it’s fair share and needs to stop. Let’s repair and maintain some infrastructure that benefits all, instead of a few.
Mudd,
The reason that I pointed out that downtown has over 1000 residents now is not to say that it is a larger percentage of the population, but that the area has changed significantly in the past 5 years. 1000 people is not huge, but it is larger than Dimmitt’s Grove, or Founder’s Grove, of GAP, or Eagle’s Landing, or the Grove. It’s a dense population in a small area. There are people downtown, there are shoppers and diners and workers downtown. All of this was in response to Diane’s statement “Show of hands please – How many of you shop downtown? Go to downtown restaurants? Maybe you go to the Farmers Market, but ever go downtown for anything else? Maybe jury duty, go to the BCPA or Coliseum occasionally, hit the bars, any other reason? There are people in downtown Bloomington, but far from the majority of residents.”
Jamie
Jamie if the downtown is doing so well as you claim, then why aren’t you supporting yourselves right now? You still haven’t answered that question which was obviously the main point.
If I may add to the point above please note that there are many other neighborhood associations, home owners associations, etc., scattered all over town. Perhaps each of those should be assisted by the city with 10’s of thousands of dollars. As there are many other historical and cultural areas around town do you think Jamie that they should get such financial assistance as the DBA receives? Why or why not?
Jamie says,,,My point is that until the DBA achieves full self-sustainability, the investment in Downtown Bloomington is a smart economic move for the city with a positive return on investment.
mudd asks,,,How do you figure that it is a smart economic move when the DBA year after year do not attain full self-sustainability? It’s like having this big huge car payment year after year but you never get the car paid off. I think you need to be cut off so you are forced to become self-sustainable. The DBA is so full of itself.
The DBA provides focus and constant progress in the downtown, which is continually being developed and improved, mostly with private dollars now that the TIF is gone. As the assessments continue to increase, the tax dollars generated in the area rise also. The $32 million is assessments I mentioned earlier generates about $425,000 in taxes to the city, That is up quite a bit from the $275,000 the area used to product. (all these in 2011 dollars, because that is what I have. Could be more now.)
So discounting every other factor (history, culture, tourism) we are helping bring in to the city pool a lot more money than we are using.
The tax assessment data you have provided doesn’t even keep up with real inflation numbers as noted in a May 31 post at 12:52am.
Although you are bringing in more than what you get back so is many other taxpayers in this town. City of Bloomington doesn’t send me a check. Web staff (even though your base is out of town) do you get a check from the CIty for providing a friendlier and more open public comment section than the local media? Are there any commenters here that are Blm. residents that get a check from the City?
Still waiting on that check Mudd. Must be low in the mail.
Jamie, let’s hear your response to mudd. Or are you just shaking your head at us idiots that just don’t get it?
I highly doubt that Jamie responds to my posts even though I do believe he has, or will read them. Jamie as a wannabe politician is practicing his political correctness, which teaches them that when someone confronts them with facts that are not helpful to their cause they will ignore it and hope that it goes away. There is no debate as consensus must rule the day. Fortunately however, most people can see right through this method as having it practiced on them again and again and are sick of it. This method will fail as the times, they are a changin’.
Again, I apologize for the delay in replying. I am not a wannabe at anything – there aren’t many things I set my mind that don’t happen. Nor am I worried about political correctness, but I do try to be polite in conversations with people I don’t know. There have been no facts presented thus far that contradict my opinions that investment in the downtown is worth the continued investments.
Time are changing. The internet gives people the safety of anonymity, and some folks no longer choose to pursue polite debate. Statesmanship is on the wane while rhetoric and soundbites are becoming the norm. I can only hope that somewhere along the way, people choose to become educated voters and do their own research to form opinions.
Should you, Hoover, or Diane care to meet with me for coffee or beers and talk through this, I’ll buy the first round. You can always email me at [email protected].
Taxes keep going up only because the elected have a vision they want fulfilled but didn’t bother to detail before they got elected. The Bloomington City Council isn’t representing their ward since anything Renner or hales want they get. The role of government has been lost. Statesmanship isn’t taking more money from the people. I think you really mean leadership, something sadly lacking in every area of government.
I apologize for the delay – I had work and volunteer obligations that kept me busy for the past couple of days.
I find there are very few idiots. There are people with legitimately different viewpoints, there are people ignorant of the facts, and there are people willfully deceitful, but very few idiots.
Couple of thoughts for you Jamie:
(You) may be correct that millennials want to live in Portland, and there is probably a percentage of them that choose to move to the west coast. Heck, after some of the crazy cold we had this winter, it would be a nice change. Yet for those that cannot or choose not to move, there is a significant number of them that want to live in downtown-style neighborhoods. In Downtown Bloomington, most of the time there is a waiting list of people looking for apartments to open up. 28 newly remodeled apartments just opened up above the hockey shop and are already rented. Its a trend that we have been seeing for 5+ years. Over 1000 people live above the shops and businesses in Downtown Bloomington now.>>>But WAIT! Since when does the claim of 1000 people which represents only 1.25% of the population of Bloomington rate as “significant?” LMAO! Does the waiting list include the $2mil City subsidised Ensenberger building? Where did these 1000 people come from? Did they all come from other downtown apartments meaning that there was no increase in downtown living which destroys your suggestion that people are flocking to downtown? Where oh where did they come from as this information is pertinent to your suggestion? Typical claim without basis from the pc crowd…
Downtown Bloomington is the historic and cultural hub of Bloomington. But lets just assume that you don’t care about that. So…>>>WAIT! Let’s break down that word Jamie, ass-u-me,,,it’s makes an ass out of u, but not me. That’s how they see it in the business world Jamie. Here’s the problem with the DBA. If you do not agree with them 100% then you will be demonized as Jamie’s opening statement to this paragraph suggests. The DBA doesn’t want dialogue unless the consensus is that they get everything that they want irrespective of the costs to the taxpayers.
Downtown Bloomington is a fast-growing economic hub for Bloomington. During the 23 period of the TIF district, the assessed value of the TIF district increased from $21 million to $32 million, outpacing inflation by about 8%. The money collected and used for Downtown improvements during that 23 year period of time will be repaid by the increases in assessed value over 7 years. (at least using the most recent numbers I have from 2011 – the assessed value has probably continued to rise due to continued private investment). Accoridng to the most recent charts I saw, sales tax revenue in a district heavily populated by professionals and services rose every yeaer from 1989 – 2011. But WAIT>>> According to inflationdate.com ,,, “,,,the total cumulative inflation for the almost 22 years from January 1990 through September 2012 is 81.64%…” So Jamie you’re thinking is that the 52% TIF increase has outpaced real inflation of 81.64%! Have you been buying into the commie core arithmetic books as well Jamie? Downtown is an economic hub? Seriously? I would really like to see some financial information to back that one up.
Another thought is that the DBA as a membership association can use a resource that is difficult for the City to use because of liability reasons – volunteers. Most of the Farmers’ Market is run by volunteers; our fundraisers and other promotional events that keep economic activity happening are powered the same way. But WAIT>>> Although I am personally a big fan of people coming together and volunteering their time and skills in order to skirt those liability issues, why not use that $90k you all get to pay the workers?And by the way as I am sure that you will be on the bandwagon for the next push for a livable wage, you should pay them. If they don’t want the money they can donate it back to the city by accruing parking tickets while they are working these events. There. Problem solved. You are welcome.
My guess is that there will be no reply from you as you,,,just,,,don’t have any real facts to support you claims.
Next time, use the line “Those assumptions make an ‘ass’ out of you and ‘umption’.” It plays better grammatically and lends a certain panache to your comments. You can go ahead and use that line, and I won’t even ask for credit. You’re welcome.
Where did the tenants come from? You make a good point that the current crop I honestly do not know where they came from. Could they be hopping from apartment to loft to apartment downtown? Sure. However the apartments they are leaving are back-filling. As new apartments are renovated / built they are being filled also. That’s why there was a waiting list. As for 1000 people being significant, if they were all standing on your front lawn I think you would find that significant. It is significant in the fact that there used to be less than 200 people living downtown. It is growth, which is what this discussion is about.
Regarding the Ensenburger building – that building is condos and not apartments and as such was not included in my earlier statements. However if you want to know what is going on with that building, I will tell you what I know about it. The owners went to City Council and asked for TIF money to redevelop that old building (which had been empty for a long time) into luxury condos. The developer they were working with started the project and everything moved forward. Somewhere along the lines, there was a huge falling out, and a lawsuits and countersuits happened. All sales of units were banned by court order for about 2 years until the lawsuits were settles. When everything was finally moving forward, the economy tanked and no one was looking for a luxury condo anymore. Was it a good use of TIF money? I think that remains to be seen. It is certainly taking far longer than projected. I would hate to be the guy footing the confo association fees for the unsold units.
From what I have heard, things are finally moving forward again. A couple more units have sold, but a banker friend of mine said that banks are loath to loan money until a condo development is 50% sold. So mostly people are having to self finance to move in, which comes back to the luxury condo aspect, meaning people are having to self finance expensive units. If they can get over the 50% mark, hopefully the rest will sell more quickly. The ones I have seen are beautiful. If you haven’t ever seen them, you should take a tour of them when the DBA hosts it Tour de Metro fundraiser next Friday. Then you can help the DBA move towards financial independence!
I have to be honest that I don’t even understand what you are trying to communicate in that second comment. That’s how they see what in the business world? I own multiple business and I’m not sure what we’re seeing here.
As far as demonizing , I don’t see anywhere in the first paragraph where Jamie demonized anyone. (we’re still talking about me, correct? Your message was directed at me but then went weirdly third person, so I’m playing along.) The DBA is happy to have a dialogue at any time. I promise you that if you reached out to Tricia Stiller or Troy Clark they would be happy to sit down with you, just the same as I offered.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the DBA. Have you ever come to a DBA meeting or spoken to anyone on the DBA board? Just curious.
Regarding the TIF and inflation, here is a link to inflation adjusted calculations I created and sent to the City Council when I was the DBA president in 2009. It uses the County’s information on how much money was generated by the TIF district each year, and the calculates the changes, adjusts them for inflation, and then shows the changes from the previous year. I don’t remember where I found the inflation numbers for each year, but if you feel that my calculations are off, feel free to correct it and send it back. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8fi40t7lj86a4am/AAD8TomiMAqaJtuSMWo1pe52a
More assumptions from you there at the end. You don’t have the slightest clue what my political affiliations are, what my opinions are regarding any other subject other than the DBA. You spent a lot of time railing at me that I didn’t have any facts, and yet you only presented a single number looked up online in your arguments.
My guess is that there will be no reply from you as you,,,just,,,don’t have any real facts to support you(r) claims.
JAMIE SAYS, “Again, I apologize for the delay in replying. I am not a wannabe at anything – there aren’t many things I set my mind that don’t happen. Nor am I worried about political correctness, but I do try to be polite in conversations with people I don’t know. There have been no facts presented thus far that contradict my opinions that investment in the downtown is worth the continued investments.
Time are changing. The internet gives people the safety of anonymity, and some folks no longer choose to pursue polite debate. Statesmanship is on the wane while rhetoric and soundbites are becoming the norm. I can only hope that somewhere along the way, people choose to become educated voters and do their own research to form opinions.”
Well, well, well,,,,1st now it dawns on me the delay of when web staff can review and post replies as a factor that needs to be considered. 2nd,,,are you insinuating Jamie that I have not been polite? A reasonable person would believe that you wanted to be an alderman which is where I got the wannabee. 3rd,,,yes I do like the anonymity of the internet, yes I do, but isn’t it the content that matters? 4th,,,the facts concerning the continued investments in downtown are not the issue. The issue is the $90k to the DBA!
Big difference. Do you seriously need further explanation? 5th,,,and I can only hope that you someday step outside of your box Jamie to research and educate yourself on historical data as affects others around you, more so than being completely focused on the downtown. But that is where you’re investments are so I won’t hold my breath.
Next time, use the line “Those assumptions make an ‘ass’ out of you and ‘umption’.” It plays better grammatically and lends a certain panache to your comments. You can go ahead and use that line, and I won’t even ask for credit. You’re welcome. *** Your original post that I responded to you used the word “assume” of which I broke down at a 3rd grade level. Still with the spin even now. On another note, I hated grammar when I was a kid. Guess it shows but I still get my point across.
Where did the tenants come from? You make a good point that the current crop I honestly do not know where they came from. Could they be hopping from apartment to loft to apartment downtown? Sure. However the apartments they are leaving are back-filling. As new apartments are renovated / built they are being filled also. That’s why there was a waiting list. As for 1000 people being significant, if they were all standing on your front lawn I think you would find that significant. It is significant in the fact that there used to be less than 200 people living downtown. It is growth, which is what this discussion is about. *** If 200 people were standing on your big toe, that would be significant. Perhaps 1, 450 lb. black bear standing on your big toe or within your arms reach as it appears to be very angry or very hungry would be significant. Your response offers no value, only distraction. Still as a matter of FACT (of which you have noted that I have offered no facts,) the population of 1000 people equals a mere 1.25% of the population of the City of Bloomington which to some is an insignificant number to warrant the annual contribution of $90,000 from the taxpayers of which your members contribute (hearsay) a mere $7,100. What a joke! Please correct this number if I am wrong as I would love to hear that the DBA members are doing so well downtown that they can pony up more than this. An area that is doing well usually spreads the the wealth to insure continued success.
Regarding the Ensenburger building – that building is condos and not apartments and as such was not included in my earlier statements. However if you want to know what is going on with that building, I will tell you what I know about it. The owners went to City Council and asked for TIF money to redevelop that old building (which had been empty for a long time) into luxury condos. The developer they were working with started the project and everything moved forward. Somewhere along the lines, there was a huge falling out, and a lawsuits and countersuits happened. All sales of units were banned by court order for about 2 years until the lawsuits were settles. When everything was finally moving forward, the economy tanked and no one was looking for a luxury condo anymore. Was it a good use of TIF money? I think that remains to be seen. It is certainly taking far longer than projected. I would hate to be the guy footing the confo association fees for the unsold units. *** OMG! Big apology for mixing up the condo/apartment thing. How could I have been so blind?
From what I have heard, things are finally moving forward again. A couple more units have sold, but a banker friend of mine said that banks are loath to loan money until a condo development is 50% sold. So mostly people are having to self finance to move in, which comes back to the luxury condo aspect, meaning people are having to self finance expensive units. If they can get over the 50% mark, hopefully the rest will sell more quickly. The ones I have seen are beautiful. If you haven’t ever seen them, you should take a tour of them when the DBA hosts it Tour de Metro fundraiser next Friday. Then you can help the DBA move towards financial independence! *** Ha! DBA and financial independence. Never happen while you’ve got the City giving you $90k ere is no incentive to stand on your own.
I have to be honest that I don’t even understand what you are trying to communicate in that second comment. That’s how they see what in the business world? I own multiple business and I’m not sure what we’re seeing here. *** FACT – I responded to the “weasel words.” Read it again. Maybe you’ll get it this time.
As far as demonizing , I don’t see anywhere in the first paragraph where Jamie demonized anyone. *** Dude! Did you just do a first person, second person swap? ***(we’re still talking about me, correct? Your message was directed at me but then went weirdly third person, so I’m playing along.) The DBA is happy to have a dialogue at any time. I promise you that if you reached out to Tricia Stiller or Troy Clark they would be happy to sit down with you, just the same as I offered.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the DBA. Have you ever come to a DBA meeting or spoken to anyone on the DBA board? Just curious. *** FACT – No. Yes.
Regarding the TIF and inflation, here is a link to inflation adjusted calculations I created and sent to the City Council when I was the DBA president in 2009. It uses the County’s information on how much money was generated by the TIF district each year, and the calculates the changes, adjusts them for inflation, and then shows the changes from the previous year. I don’t remember where I found the inflation numbers for each year, but if you feel that my calculations are off, feel free to correct it and send it back. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8fi40t7lj86a4am/AAD8TomiMAqaJtuSMWo1pe52a *** Probable FACT – The county’s information is undoubtedly relying on other governmental data which is not reliable.
More assumptions from you there at the end. You don’t have the slightest clue what my political affiliations are, what my opinions are regarding any other subject other than the DBA. You spent a lot of time railing at me that I didn’t have any facts, and yet you only presented a single number looked up online in your arguments. *** FACT – The clues where provided when you ran for alderman. How many debates/forums did you participate in Sir? Were those not a window of your thoughts, suggestions of action on several subject matters regarding the City of Bloomington?
My guess is that there will be no reply from you as you,,,just,,,don’t have any real facts to support you(r) claims. *** Facts presented. Thanks for the opportunity. Thoroughly enjoyed it!
How about everybody who wants to have “discussions” exchange email addresses!